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i_smile’s comment to my blah about father issues. Except we somehow got on the topic of Sasuke, and I honestly don’t know how it got to this size, so, I post it here. And yeah -_- Go read her Sasuke discussion.To begin off with; of course I still adore you (you and your gigantic brain).
But is hostile, controlling and homicidal better? I honestly don’t remember Sasuke whining during the series (and this can be my complete and utter blind spot to things I don’t want to see *koffs* -_-;;) I found him unbelievably self-centered, blind, and too much of a prick, except those things don’t irritate me that much. I could never compare the situation of Gaara and Neji with that of Sasuke. Gaara has been dealing (I can’t believe I’m saying ‘dealing’?) with his uh, ‘situation’ as far as he can remember, he either had to adapt or die. He never had love, except with that bitch who tried to kill him, and that was an ‘abnormality’ rather than a norm. It impacted heavily on his life but the way he dealt with it was to revert back to, ‘I don’t care. Hurt those who hurt me.’ It might have been shock but not to the point of omfg my world has ended. In addition, he still had family, sure he only figured out that he might actually like them chapters into the manga, but he figured it out, and they are still there. Naruto opened his eyes to everything he has missed, I mean here was Naruto, someone who is equally hated by all but hey, loudmouth don’t care, because he’s going to change the world and makes it better (damn I love Naruto). Neji is different from both Gaara and Sasuke. Neji believes in fate, and yes there’s an abundance of anger, but a lot of it he channeled into, ‘I can’t change anything this is who I am, blah, blah, blah.’ And despite all the shit that happened he still had his clan, sure the situation is pretty shitty, but he has family and as Naruto said, he’ll change the Hyuuga clan for Neji, and Neji believes in Naruto because Naruto can change the world.
Complete agreement on Sasuke being stuck in a loop of personal development, but I want to ask a question; how is Sasuke suppose to move on? No, I’m not kidding, I’m really interested. Because based from my POV (and it is definitely my own POV, and you know for once I actually was authorial intent,) Sasuke can’t move on. For all purposes he is stuck and Naruto can’t help Sasuke in the way he helped Gaara and Neji. Naruto/don’t/ know what it feels like for Sasuke. I probably sound completely and utterly heartless here but the bottom line; the pain from having no parents, and the pain of having /everything/ a family can offer and then to have that love be taken away by the closest person to you in the world, well, that’s slightly different. And Naruto can’t make that better. He can’t say ‘I’ll create something better for you,’ because Itachi (for whatever reason) had taken it all away.
It isn’t that I don’t think Sasuke had made mistakes, he has, but I never saw his decision for leaving Konoha as one. He made a decision, it might have been the wrong one but when he fought Naruto (left him alive) and walked off, he knew exactly what he was doing, for the first time I could see what Sasuke can be like the future, and it isn’t happy, but it is someone that he chose to be. And OMFG! I love your BRAIN! Your whole paragraph on the reason as to why Sasuke decided to leave Leaf! Perfect! Exactly what I think! And you see that is WHY I’m all the Sasuke LOVE! But that’s like the reason why over half of the fandom hate him. For once he makes a decision that he thought through, and the fandom is all ‘Bad Sasuke. Bad.’ And complete agreement on the anger toward Naruto, it isn’t focused on the blond so much as at himself, at his own complete and utter uselessness. Dead-last had beaten him, and Itachi doesn’t give a shit about him. Hello, breaking point. Sasuke walking into the forest; happiest moment in my ‘Naruto’ reading time. I’m so glad someone thinks the same as me.
I would have liked him better if he'd realised that there was nothing that would ever make what Itachi did right, and that the only thing he could do is keep on living and fighting beside his friends.
See, I’m completely opposite on this one. (Your brain has failed me :P) Probably because I’m not the forgiving kind -_-;; But I would seriously kill anyone if they killed off any member of my family (over-identification with fictional characters, maybe I should take up a new hobby.) Revenge is one of those things in fiction that makes the reading experience that much more interesting. Forgiveness of killers has always been one of those touchy things for me. An author better be damn talented before they attempt to go, ‘Oh, I’m such a nice person that I’ll forgive you for murdering my family.’ Bull. See, this is why I like ‘Blade of the Immortal,’ Anotsu is not a bad guy, Rin is not a killer, but that didn’t stop Anotsu from leading a pack of killers that killed and raped their victims. And Rin being a nice, clumsy girl chose vengeance. There are things in life that can’t be forgiven (we are human), and sometime no matter what other people say, you can’t let it go. Saying it and doing it are completely two different things. Sasuke choosing revenge had always been one of those things I saw as a given. He could not choose any different. If for some reason K-sensei had decided to let him get over the massacre of his whole clan, staying to fight beside with his friends, well, I would have stopped reading ‘Naruto’ right there and then. And what makes the whole situation worse is that it wasn’t some random person that killed off his whole family, it was /his/ brother that he trusted, admired, and loved. I cringe every time I think about just what Sasuke must be thinking.
I think I have said this sometime ago, but I truly believe that Sasuke can’t live his life without first killing Itachi. It isn’t about being whiny, or angsty, or whatever. It is about feeling betrayal, anger, and so much hatred that there is no way for Sasuke to move on without killing Itachi. And the problem is I don’t know what Sasuke will do afterward.
I still have my Sasuke-angst icon. MWAHAHAHA!
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i_smile, I'll reply to you tomorrow. Brain hurt. Need to do work.]
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chasethestars
chasethestars
Comments
I agree that in many ways this is parallel to Rin. You can say that vengeance is destructive, and that Rin gains *nothing* for herself by killing Anotsu, but what she is doing seems to be the only way she can get justice for her parents' deaths, and the alternative is to let them go unavenged. Rin could have her vengeance be "living well," but she chooses not to. We don't support Sasuke because he hurts other people in his singlemindedness, but I think the reader tends to support Rin, or at least feel that her actions are not unjustified.
You know, I love how you are able to put my jumbled thoughts in a coherent manner where I can nod and think, 'wow, I wish my brain works that well.' But yes, Naruto can relate much better to both Neji and Gaara, and he can give them something, provide them a chance to move on. The only thing that he can give Sasuke is friendship, which is not enough, because Sasuke can't take friendship and forget vengeance. Itachi can't be forgiven, (and I'll probably have to take my words back when the past is revealed. For all we know he killed off his family beacuse his family was planning to destroy Konoha, and he's on a undercover mission to check out the Akatsuki... Though that's just my brian.) No, he has not done anything that deserves forgiveness.
I see your point, so, if Sasuke didn't hurt anyone, people would find him, uh, nicer? More forgivable? But Sasuke didn't actively hurt anyone (except Naruto, but there's so much crap going on between the two of them that it'll take weeks to get through,) Konoha sent a bunch of Genins out to to get Sasuke back when they knew the 'escorts' where at least Chunnin level (or were they Jounin level?) Sasuke was in bucked for most of it, and the only person that I truly hurt was Naruto (but he didn't kill him! I know, I know, not any better.)
Yeah, Naruto was actually able to solve a great deal of Neji and Gaara's problems. It wasn't only that he helped give Neji and Gaara hope. See, Neji and Gaara weren't like Sasuke, looking for power. Gaara wanted acceptance and love, and eventually people gave it to him. (I think indirectly Naruto did change Kankuro and Temari's attitudes a bit). When Neji's uncle watched the fight, he also decided he needed to apologize to Neji. I don't think it's so much that Naruto can't relate to Sasuke, but that Sasuke can't relate to Naruto. I don't think it's a matter of who has suffered more (after all, this ain't Queen for a Day and they aren't going to win a washer), but type of problem.
Hmm, I think it's that people feel he betrayed Leaf? Admittedly, I don't think leaving Leaf is wrong in and of itself, but he also went over to Orochimaru, who is the sworn enemy of Konoha.
2. While I understand Sasuke's feelings about his family being murdered, I really *do* believe that he has to get over it. Because right now, he's becoming the person Itachi wants him to be: hateful and filled with vengeance. While I do think that Itachi has to be killed and I would like Sasuke to do it, I want Sasuke to grow up, become a better person, and not kill Itachi out of hate or for vengeance - because that is an empty victory, and that will turn Sasuke into Itachi, IMO.
V. interesting discussion! I'm glad you linked to it. I do think that Sasuke made the right decision for him. I may not like it, I may think he's cheating, but in terms of his character and development, that was his only choice.
2. No, you are right, hence, the whole 'I don't know' what Sasuke will /do/ when he kill Itachi, because I truly do belief that Sasuke will have to kill Itachi, to end a chapter of his life, to move on. But at the same time, it is going to be a complete empty victory; he has the honour of killing his only remaining living relative, and I don't care how screwed up Sasuke is, somewhere deep, deep, deep, deep down he does still care for Itachi. Maybe. Probably. Hmm. (Am I making sense? (The problem with debating about something is that at timesI lose the orignial reason as to why I was ranting about it in the first place.) What I want is a Sasuke that can somehow find his way back to Leaf (well, to Naruto) after killing Itachi, it won't be easy, and it is probably going ot be painful, but it has to be done. And I just know I'm talking myself into a circle.
The only way I can see it resolving is for Sasuke to kill Itachi, but to maybe be doing it to protect Naruto or Sakura (since Itachi/Akatsuki is aiming to kill Naruto). That'll be less of an empty victory, and then when he goes back to Konoha, he'll have people and family to return to.
Nah. Sasuke already tried training by himself, really. The problem is that - gasp! - he's progressing like a normal twelve-year-old should! It sucks that he compares himself to Naruto, who has a demon to rely on. >_>