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More SPN 401 blather; religion and comics

  • Sep. 20th, 2008 at 11:31 AM
naanima: ([SPN] Where it all began)
OK, below are my longer notes for Supernatural 401 – Lazarus Rising.


  • The whole first 8 minutes of the episode was pure gold; from Dean’s eyes surrounded by darkness and covered in blood to waking up in a coffin to finding the gas station. The lack of music was perfect and really kind of creepy. Dean, alone, walking bowlegged on a dusty road in the middle of nowhere, breaking into an abandoned gas station has a very Apocalypse feel to it. I approve.

  • Dean’s grave site; the way the surrounding trees have been pushed background like something large and powerful landed there. A very creepy moment.

  • The sound effect just before the windows and every other glass item exploded was all sort of awesome.

  • I love that Dean have flashes of what hell must have been like for him. Except he can’t remember it but for the sounds and the feeling and I just love how they are showing hell to us viewers. As a side note I love how Dean’s hands are so cut up and bruised. I have this thing for dirty/hurt hands when situations calls for it; makes a scene for real to me.

  • I have always been one of those fans who liked the idea that while there may be Angels and God in the SPN universe, that it would be a God who, if they did care, was all about free will and not about holding humanity’s hand. We make our own decisions, life is not fixed, and our ability to choose means we must own up to all the consequences of the choices we make. So, in many ways I never had a problem with the lack of the Godly presence within the SPN verse because if it did send Angels to fight a war for humanity than free will is a moot point. Also, I always believed that Hunters in many ways were the equalising force in the fight against Evil (or things who want to eat us because to them we are like cattle). However, having said that I kind of guessed that Kripke was going to be introducing Angels into the universe because it makes sense on a thematic and dramatic level.

  • So, I LOVE that Kripke went the ways of the Old Testament in relation to Angels, that yes, Angels are not loving beings (screw you Touched by an Angel), they don’t care for humans, they are Soldiers of Gods, and their sole purpose for existing is for the Will of God. In the Old Testament Angels were sent to kill, burn cities to the ground, turn people to salt, seeing an Angel was not a blessing it was often the lead up to death and annihilation. So, I’m over the moon that human eyes are burned from their sockets on seeing his visage because that’s what happens when you see something of the divine with no filter. Like staring directly at the sun with no protection except a billion times worse, she is lucky that she didn’t die.

  • Castiel; that’s how I’m spelling it till Kripke say otherwise. Boy, I swear I screamed out ‘CONSTANTINE’! at my monitor when he first appeared. Because OMFG! The trench-coat, the hair-cut, the whole package screamed John Constantine at me. And for one split second I thanked the gods that Kripke is a geek, because there is no way in hell he did not base Castiel’s look on Constantine, or one of the other Trench-coat Brigade (and if you recognise the reference, give yourself a cookie).

    I love how Castiel is so utterly alien, that there is no hint of humanity or a hint of guilt at the pain and suffering he has caused. That it was their choice for looking upon him, that humanity hardly pinged in his consciousness. I LOVED it, absolutely loved it. That the hint of admiration he is showing Dean is purely based on the fact that ‘God’ chose to save him, and that it confused him how Dean could not see his true form, that Dean seemed so normal. I just want more of this guy.

  • It appears that season 4 is picking up the lost plot line of Blood vs. Blood, Brother vs. Brother, that this season is going to be Dean vs Sam. Except the question is whether it is about Good vs. Evil or something else. Will Dean kill Sam, or will it be about Dean saying a rather big Fuck You to the universe and saving his little brother? Because, you know, it can go either way, and as much as I want one big throw down between the Winchester brothers I want it to ultimately end with Dean saving Sam because it is about the saving the people, not fighting the war. And Dean Winchester doesn't believe in destiny.

  • In conclusion, Dean is brought back by an Angel sent by God because our boy still have a job to do, Sam is practicing his powers, the demons are scared, an Angel has appeared, and maybe it is time to take bets who is going to win between the brothers. It would be awesome if they manage to kill the Angel at the end.



  • Kripke is a geek, and I’m pretty sure he has read every Vertigo title over the past decade. So, Kripke, please remember the reason some of the biggest titles out there became successful. It wasn't so much because of their huge cosmic plots so much as the emotions and the relationships within those stories.

    Also, if you can work in Gaiman’s Lucifer I’ll personally build you a shrine.

    Love,
    naanima

Comments

[identity profile] jameserin.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 03:58 am (UTC)
I want it to ultimately end with Dean saving Sam because it is about the saving the people, not fighting the war. And Dean Winchester doesn't believe in destiny.

i want it to end this way too. my feeling on it is this: the show started with them fighting other things, not each other(not talking about conflicting personalities), and it should end that way. plus, i think that if kripke killed one or both of them again, it'd be a little repetitive. but then again, kripke is twisted and would make them battle and kill each other, so i don't know. but if something happens to one and not the other, i think the surviving member will do something stupid(like kill himself?)because it's clear that neither one of them can or want to live without the other one.
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:28 am (UTC)
I think to have one of them kill the other would feel like betrayal, to me anyway, because I fell in love with show for the Winchester, because they were a family who fought to save people not because they are getting something out of it but because it is the right thing to do. Well, from Dean's POV.

because it's clear that neither one of them can or want to live without the other one.

Exactly! To have that be proven wrong would be like ripping the foundation from beneath our feet. I need to know that if anything happens Sam and Dean are together to meet it.
[identity profile] erinrua.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 04:54 am (UTC)
It appears that season 4 is picking up the lost plot line of Blood vs. Blood, Brother vs. Brother, that this season is going to be Dean vs Sam. Except the question is whether it is about Good vs. Evil or something else. Will Dean kill Sam, or will it be about Dean saying a rather big Fuck You to the universe and saving his little brother? Because, you know, it can go either way, and as much as I want one big throw down between the Winchester brothers I want it to ultimately end with Dean saving Sam because it is about the saving the people, not fighting the war. And Dean Winchester doesn't believe in destiny.

I love, love, LOVE your big thinky brain! But the above bullet point struck my attention. ;-)

Namely, I see a lot of presumption that it's going to be brother VERSUS brother, but I'm wondering ... will it really? What's Sam actually doing that Dean would oppose?

Well, he's using his "freaky powers" to stop demons. But. He's using his freaky powers to stop demons. Sam is doing the same thing Dean and Bobby and every other hunter does: he's fighting evil. I don't see him leading any demon army, I don't see him having a nanosecond of patience with any demon at all - except Ruby, and I'm actually waiting to see if *Sam* summoned *her* out to do his bidding. Sam may have a demonic advisor, opposed to Dean's new angelic one .... but I don't predict either Winchester being easily managed by their respective counsellors.

So, all that's really questionable with Sam, and worthy of Dean's concern, is the *method* by which Sam is working, not the job he's doing. I really think Lilith's blast in the face tripped a trigger in Sam, and he's just using the tools he has. Granted, at Ruby's behest, but again, how much can she really influence him?

Which leads me to the remaining question, which is: Are Sam's powers actually evil, or begat in evil, or bequethed by evil? Or are they something intrinsic to Sam that Azazel wanted to tap for is evil purposes - and failed - and Sam and Dean simply *fear* that it might be evil?

In other words, if Castiel expected that Dean should have been able to bear his actual voice, then that suggests Dean was born different in some way we do not yet know. Which suggests that Sam was born different, as well, and it's simply manifesting overtly due to evil (Azazel's) influence, but perhaps his powers are not evil of themselves.

Am I making any sense? LOL! We *fear* Sam's powers are evil, and his councellor, Ruby, absolutely has questionable motives, and there's no question Azazel had evil intent for Sam. But maybe Sam's powers are simply *his* different-ness, while Dean's different-ness has yet to be revealed. And *neither* different-ness is evil, in and of itself.

Maybe. LOL, it's gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out, that's for sure, but I'm definitely seeing room for the boys to not so much end upon opposing teams, but rather for them to simply argue the *means* by which the war is fought.

Thanks for sharing your thinky thoughts! I hope you don't mind me butting in with mine. :-)
[identity profile] lady-death.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:12 am (UTC)
Which leads me to the remaining question, which is: Are Sam's powers actually evil, or begat in evil, or bequethed by evil? Or are they something intrinsic to Sam that Azazel wanted to tap for is evil purposes - and failed - and Sam and Dean simply *fear* that it might be evil?

Thank you! I never understood the automatic assumption that Sammy's powers were evil. Being able to banish demons doesn't seem to be a bad thing, or a power a demon would particularly want to have. I've always been of the belief that Sammy's powers were intrinsic to him. Why would Azazel just pick random kids to give powers to? In that case he could have given them to anyone, chose all orphans with no ties to society who are a lot easier to manipulate, but each child he picked seemed to be very specific.

Sammy could very well become a god-like force of good. The powers are a tool, what he does with them is up to Sam.
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:36 am (UTC)
Thanks!

He's using his freaky powers to stop demons. Exactly! And they can't argue that just because the powers may have some form of demonic connection that it is bad. Because from where I'm sitting Castial is not exactly nice with the way his powers have gone. And ditto about Sam actually leading an Army of Demons. At the moment it just doesn't seem to be gelling with what he is doing; killing demons, sending them back to hell.

But maybe Sam's powers are simply *his* different-ness, while Dean's different-ness has yet to be revealed. And *neither* different-ness is evil, in and of itself.

No, that makes perfect sense! I have always thought that being fed the blood of Azazel doesn't mean you have taken on his powers so much as the blood act as some of locator, a way to keep track of all the special children.

I think that the Demons and Castial want to set the Winchesters against one another, but at the same time I don't think that can happen, not if the 2 of them actually comes clean about the whole thing. And you know, I'm still a bit obsessed over whether trusting an Angel is the smart move. Because Angels don't care; if God tells them to kill they will do it, and well Demons lie at least Sam and Dean know what to expect from them.
[identity profile] lady-death.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:58 am (UTC)
No, that makes perfect sense! I have always thought that being fed the blood of Azazel doesn't mean you have taken on his powers so much as the blood act as some of locator, a way to keep track of all the special children.

I'm sorry to but in here, but I needed to say a massive 'yes!' I litteraly had this conversation yesterday. Here's to supporting the locator theory.

[identity profile] lady-death.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:26 am (UTC)
So, I LOVE that Kripke went the ways of the Old Testament in relation to Angels, that yes, Angels are not loving beings (screw you Touched by an Angel), they don’t care for humans, they are Soldiers of Gods, and their sole purpose for existing is for the Will of God.

I just wanted to say I agree emphatically. If we had to have Angels, (and I wasn't against the idea of there being supernatural forces of "good" in the SPN universe, I just hope we see some from other mythology besides the Judeo-Christian one) than I do think Kripke set the tone perfectly. They aren't all warm and cuddly.

I love how Castiel is so utterly alien, that there is no hint of humanity or a hint of guilt at the pain and suffering he has caused. That it was their choice for looking upon him, that humanity hardly pinged in his consciousness. I LOVED it, absolutely loved it.

I was disscussing this and the conclusion my friend and I came to, is the thing about angels is they obey god's will without question. They're truly perfect in the regard that they have no doubt, no hesitancy, no second thought. He warned her, and she didn't obey immediately. Well then, she got what she deserved.

And for one split I thanked the gods that Kripke is a geek, because there is no way in hell he did not base Castiel’s look on Constantine, or one of the other Trench-coat Brigade

It is so much more fun when other people notice this!

It wasn't so much because of their huge cosmic plots so much as the emotions and the relationships within those stories.

Thank you. I don't need huge battles or epic scenery if you give me good characterization and focus on what works, the bond between the brothers.

Also, if you can work in Gaiman’s Lucifer I’ll personally build you a shrine.

One of the best characterizations of Lucifer no? And it would fit right in with Supernatural, while the demons are squabbling amongst themselves in their hierarchy, he's taken off.

(Also I really wanted Gaiman's idea of hell that you torture yourself there.)





[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:43 am (UTC)
They're truly perfect in the regard that they have no doubt, no hesitancy, no second thought. He warned her, and she didn't obey immediately. Well then, she got what she deserved.

EXACTLY! They are perfect, they do not question their existence for they know God's love, and that God cannot be wrong, and in return they are completely obedient to God. We all know what happened to the one who didn't agree.

I was COMPLETELY geeking out over the Constantine outfit; trench coats! EEEE!

the bond between the brothers.

EXACTLY! I found the best episodes where the episodes that focused on their relationship, and while special effects add to the overall enjoyment of the story it isn't the main attraction. Hell, apparently they blew a stupid amount of money on the Magnificent 7, and it was one of the weakest episode of season 3.

Oh gods, I would pay money to see Gaiman's Lucifer. Tuxedo and all.

(I love the idea that one let oneself by tortured, except in Dean's case I get the feeling it wasn't so much letting himself as the fact that he made a Deal and there was not way out. Except it seems there is a way out after all).

I'm REALLY excited about this season. REALLY excited.
[identity profile] lady-death.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:56 am (UTC)
EXACTLY! I found the best episodes where the episodes that focused on their relationship, and while special effects add to the overall enjoyment of the story it isn't the main attraction.

Me too! There were some episodes I was muttering under my breath, "they have no idea what makes this show work, do they?" (But at least they've never lost as much focus as say Heroes, first half of Season Two, and the current season of Prison Break.)


I was COMPLETELY geeking out over the Constantine outfit; trench coats! EEEE!

Oh gods, I would pay money to see Gaiman's Lucifer. Tuxedo and all.


This is why I'm thankful for [livejournal.com profile] spn_heavymeta, I can find people who squee over the same things I squee over. *massive squee!*

And they better bring him back in that same vissage.

I'm actually a lot more excited than I thought I would be, especially because I really wanted an Orpheus plot. Now I just need an icon that says "Don't Fuck It Up, Kripke." He better keep doing the Old Testament angels right



[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 21st, 2008 12:35 pm (UTC)
(But at least they've never lost as much focus as say Heroes, first half of Season Two, and the current season of Prison Break.)

OMFG! EXACTLY! I think that's one of the main reasons I love our little show. Despite how bad it can get it never forget the main story it is trying to sell. While minor plot lines may be dropped they ALWAYS deliver on the main event, which many shows don't (X-Files, you bastard).

"Don't Fuck It Up, Kripke."

OH GODS! This MUST be made!
[identity profile] lady-death.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 21st, 2008 04:20 pm (UTC)
(X-Files, you bastard). *shakes fist* Don't we have some production people from there too? Hopefully, they learned from those mistakes.

OH GODS! This MUST be made!

If I had better icon skills I would. We need to commission someone.

(PS I love your banner.)
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 23rd, 2008 02:43 am (UTC)
I blame Chris Carter for all the bad things that went wrong. The production people were awesome.

I'll make it, I just need to get some time.

(Thanks! I LOVE Robert Downey Jr. I want to make a SPN banner but that requires time.)
[identity profile] lea-ndra.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 06:40 am (UTC)
t appears that season 4 is picking up the lost plot line of Blood vs. Blood, Brother vs. Brother, that this season is going to be Dean vs Sam

yeah, that was what I figured. I've been waiting for that to happen now for... uh, I dunno, at least since the end of Season 1. It perfectly fits into the Hero's Journey - Kripke is following that one almost religiously.
[identity profile] threecatmama.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 01:15 pm (UTC)
I'm beginning to wonder if Ruby has more humanity than Castiel? She at least was once a human. He has never been. I'm quite sure both advisors hve their own personal agendas and aren't all that worried about the brothers.

My guess is there will be fighting between brothers, but more of the stubborn idealogical kind. Because I am also slowly becoming convinced that Sam's powers are not demonically driven at all.

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that Sam was born with these powers (perhaps inherited from Mary) and Azazel was trying to tap them or manipulate them somehow when he was 6 months old.

So what if Sam's powers really are "god-given"? I guess we'll have to watch and see. :)
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 04:01 pm (UTC)
if Ruby has more humanity than Castiel?

*NODS* And this is why I'm much more inclined for Sam to ally with Ruby than Dean allying with Castiel.

I'm with you on Sam's ability being his own. I think the blood was used either as a 'booster' to already preexisting abilities or some kind of locator for Azazel to keep track of all the special children.

So what if Sam's powers really are "god-given"? Well, it would be a war to see who can control Sam first I suspect.
[identity profile] fryadvocate.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 04:20 pm (UTC)
I think the demons being scared was what really got me. So far, even when they were being killed or exorcised, we haven't seen demons afraid. Major points to the show for the awesome.
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 04:23 pm (UTC)
The silent panic was the thing that got me. How the demons are all trying to pretend that they are still biggest bad around but terrified to their bones because whatever is out there is something that they don't know.

Also, did you notice the way the waitress demon kept on staring at Sam all the way through the conversation she had with Dean? I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into it or if there is something there.

But yes, our show is awesome!
[identity profile] threecatmama.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 25th, 2008 10:14 pm (UTC)
I totally think demon waitress and Sam were comunicating silently. I think Sam was controlling her, which is why Dean wasn't sent flying into the nearest wall, which is typically the first thing the demons like to do to him.
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 26th, 2008 01:48 am (UTC)
That would explain many things. I mean if he can rip demons out of people's bodies I don't see why he can't control them with his MIND! But yes, very interesting that she didn't throw him across the room and into a wall.
yourlibrarian: Angel and Lindsey (Default)
[personal profile] yourlibrarian wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 05:56 pm (UTC)
Even though the season just started I am curious where the end point will be. At the end of S1 we had John (and nearly the Impala) die, then Sam, then Dean. Who's left? The way they're talking they're not going to hold their cards for a S5, so I'm guessing it will have to be the final defeat of someone. I like that the stakes are being raised.
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 21st, 2008 12:32 pm (UTC)
That's actually a good point. I think season 4 may be the death of Castiel or an Epic battle between the brothers and the end of season 5 is Dean and Sam and Heaven and Hell.

I'm just really excited about this season!
[identity profile] ahliadra.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 20th, 2008 10:20 pm (UTC)
I just wanted to write a quick note, not knowing if you remembered a conversation we had oh... a season or so ago.

We were discussing how Sam was special and that Dean, being the first born son, had to be as well. That it just didn't make sense that Dean would be passed over, there had to be more to him than what you see.

It's nice to see Dean getting play in the big show. It's nice to see Dean's importance finally having weight. And for him to be more than Sam's protector. Although that could play into why it's the Angels that have found and ultimately saved Dean. Anyhow, I am very much looking forward to Dean's role now that God has commanded him saved.

And regardless if this Angel is someone not to be trusted, I am definitely looking forward to more of him. His curiousity at Dean, the fact he has Demons worried, the way he is so Old Testament, I'm very intrigued.

And one last thought, I loved that he actually gave the psychic (Pam?) a chance to look away. He didn't just burn out her eyes or kill her on the spot. Me thinks it's because Dean was present that he offered the chance to still have her eyes intact. Perhaps a way to say, see I'm someone to trust, I gave her the chance and she didn't take it. Couldn't be helped, kind of thing.

The entrance, and the shadow-wings was great! Done babbling.
[identity profile] naanima.livejournal.com wrote:
Sep. 21st, 2008 12:30 pm (UTC)
Dean, being the first born son, had to be as well. That it just didn't make sense that Dean would be passed over, there had to be more to him than what you see.

Oh gods, I had forgotten that before now. But yes, it feels damn good to be validated (kind of). I'm really hoping they will expand a bit more on jsut what role Dean has in the Winchester mythology.

That whole scene with the psychic's eyes and then later with Castiel just makes the dude a hundred times more scary. I get shivers thinking about him. But yes the whole thing does have a feel of a set up.

Good to hear from you.

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