Don't worry about bleed from the Batman movies from me. Aside from the comics, I've pretty much only seen a few episodes of the BAM, POW live-action TV show, and that one movie with Chris O'Donnell as Robin. And I can't even remember what Batman was like in them, so that won't be an issue. :D


A big part of my with Superman is actually that he seems to be too human. Not always normal--still slightly off--but very much connected to human emotions and attachments and weaknesses. He's naive and overly emotionally connected in some ways & suspicious and cold in other ways, in a fake skin over robotics way. Except that I trust robots. :D He can be petty. He gets angry and frustrated like any guy might. The more I see of him, the less he looks anything like perfect. And, well. He shouldn't be that way. He has too much power for displays of normal human emotions to be anything like comforting. (It reminds me of that story with the little kid who can change the world just by wishing it. Why wouldn't he zap his parents out of existence if they don't give in to his demands?) He just doesn't seem like an exceptional enough guy to handle the powers he has.

It totally freaks me out when he says stuff like "I have felt a chill in my bones before. Every time I try to reason with you" to human beings (that was said to Batman in the first part of Green Arrow: Quiver). If he got angry at Batman, he could totally snap him before Batman even got his kryptonite ring out, what with being faster than a speeding bullet & more powerful than a locomotive.

And yet people trust him! Not just normal people (which, uh. Really? Is this an "in the comfortable arms of our totalitarian father" thing?), but also his peers. Does anyone aside from Batman find him to be totally scary? Are they too powerful themselves to see the scary? And the underlying feeling of the comics seems to me to be that we're supposed to consider Superman to be a good guy, too. Like Dr Shepherd, kinda.

I think that trust on the part of other characters is a big part of it for me, because Cable (from X-Men) doesn't bother me in the same way--even though he's been shown to be able to read the mind of everyone in the world, he can teleport, his telekinesis was at bomb-containment levels & able to keep a small country floating above the ocean without too much obvious strain, and his version of kryptonite (the T-O virus that he had to use most of his powers to keep in check way back when) is now trivially easy for him to control/not an issue. Because very few people trust his motives or his abilities in the text. The best most people give him is "Means well, but..." and so there are always people waiting for him to slip up or to fail or to cross a line--or not waiting for it before opposing him.

And, man, Superman does not doubt himself enough for my comfort.

What it boils down to is: I'm uncomfortable with major super-powers in general; I'm doubly uncomfortable when the problematic, scary elements aren't acknowledged throughout the text.

(Also, um. The idea of Superman or Superboy having sex horrifies me. See also: "Superman has been known to leave his fingerprints in steel and in hardened concrete, accidentally. What would he do to the woman in his arms during what amounts to an epileptic fit? ... with kryptonian muscles behind it, Kal-El's semen would emerge with the muzzle velocity of a machine gun bullet." (http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html))

But as I said, I haven't read much Superman. I've probably only read through a couple of dozen individual issues involving him. It's just that while I knew him as an icon through cultural osmosis (or whatever), I considered him kind of the boring element of the DC set; actually seeing him in action... utterly creeps me out on an intellectual and a gut level.

Just like to chip in a bit about the Superman part. One thing that always alienated him from me as a do-gooder of humanity is that unlike his human counterparts, he is *too* human. It is almost as if he never grew out of the trust that little children feel for the adults around them - that the people around him are supposed to always do what is right. Not do what is best, but right. There's an interesting Elseworld called 'Superman/Batman: Generations'. In it Luthor snapped Lois' neck, corrupted Superman's son and instigated his son to kill Superman's younger daughter. All in a matter of minutes. What does the Man of Steel do? A normal human reaction will be to maim Luthor beyond recognition, but Superman allowed Luthor to go into hiding for a year, and even when Superman eventually accidentally killed Luthor he had himself put on trial for the murder. WTF?

It is... not human for someone to be so human, you know? To be so rooted in the belief that no one is truly evil, and to never doubt that for one moment that you can redeem those who have strayed from the path of righteousness. When he fails to save ANYONE, he griefs, he get mad at himself, but never does he ever think that the person deserves death.

I guess maybe I am mistrustful of an alien who is more compassionate than any human can ever be.

On another note though, it's a bit tiresome sometimes the way Batman pegs people for life - "you squished a rat when you were 4! You have murderous tendencies!!" XD;; He totally never said that, but definitely said things to that effect whether in comics or in the animated series. Even in Batman Beyond he was still displaying a distrust of anyone with a criminal background, including Terry's buddy (though one might as why was Terry the exception to the case, and perhaps even Jason in comic-verse).

I definitely see manipulation possible. Superman wants so much to believe in the inherent goodness of anyone, he is prepared to accept just about every possible excuse for them. I know Ma and Pa Kent raised him to be a good citizen and basically to help others especially in view of his magnificent abilities, but he just takes the lesson a step too far. So if for example Joker decided to poison the whole Daily Planet and kill everyone inside, I'll bet my bottom dollar that Superman will try to argue that he was of limited mental facilities when he commited the crime.

Is Superman deliberately blinding himself because he cannot DARE imagining that people can be truly evil and unredeemable? What happens if he one day finally learns that yes, humans are terrible creatures conscious and capable of monstrocities? What then?

Ah, Jason. The son who gained favour through death and my absolute favourite of the Bat-boys :D Did he even get a stern talking-to at all? All I recalled during Winick's run was that Batman was chasing after him, and when he finally caught up with him over Joker all Jason got was a "we can't kill or we can never go back" speech. That, and Batman accidentally sliced his throat. But it was an accident! Not to mention, Batman hasn't done anything about Cassandra who had not only gone rogue, taken over the League of Assasins and then proceeded to kill all of David Cain's proteges and David himself.

Perhaps the Bat is practising favouritism? God forbid that he is doing so XD;;

Batman's mistrust of his fellow do-gooders apparently stemmed from the fact that Zatanna wiped his mind of 10 minutes of memory once during 'Identity Crisis'. It was that paranoia of being unable to trust even those who are supposed to be on his side that led him to build the Brother Eye which heralded 'Infinite Crisis'. A bit over the top for a mere 10 minutes of lost memories, methinks, but since Batman's war on crime is built on a pattern of trust (Gordon, Oracle, Robins, Batgirls, etc), maybe that is why he takes it so seriously when one of their own has strayed. Notice, of course, that the "one of their own" usually doesn't encompass his own Bat-family. Jason and Cass being examples as mentioned above.

Speaking of Superman, I don't think that even in the Elseworlds, he has been shown to exact justified vengence. It is just... bizarre. I know that in the DC offices, there's a specs sheet for Batman that all writers get when they get the job of writing the guy (according to the chap who got his Phd. in Batman studies and then proceeded to write a book called 'Batman Unmasked'), and on it it details things that Bruce Wayne/Batman can and cannot do and so on. If there is such a specs sheet for Supes (which I don't doubt there is), maybe "uncorruptable belief in humanity" is on the list of Superman/Clark Kent's traits.

According to Didio and various other sources, Dick was *supposed* to die in Infinite Crisis. So that you'd have a "Superman & Batman's proteges die" type of ending. They backed out of it because Dick had too many supporters, so only Superboy bit the bullet. Only problem was that since IC was written with plans for Dick to die, the One Year Later for Dick has been less than spectacular.

Actually, I am lying. Reading Nightwing OYL had caused me physical pain just flipping the pages. The story was bleah, and the art was no saving grace either. Now that Marv is back writing Nightwing, things can still go either way. One can only assume that since Dick was supposed to die in IC, perhaps Jason was next in line for the Nightwing mantel (as evident in him running around in Nightwing's pajamas for a while in the Nightwing comics), and things would have gone a lot differently as a result, least of which is the rest of the Bat-family's reaction. A wonderfully interesting potential - lost because fans cannot accept a change that will no doubt be reversed by the year's end. Alas!

The part about Cass was actually covered in the Robin storyline where he was framed for the murder of Batgirl. Long story short Cass has been killing off his adversaries and her own, and trying to get him to join her side because in her view, Batman had been using them as "baits" in his Fight. You know - something bright and shiny and young for the villains to take pot shots at while Batman prepares for the crippling blow. Tim didn't agree with her, and they parted ways after she pounded him good. Cass is slated to reappear as Batgirl in 'Teen Titans' in the evil counterpart team of the regular Teen Titans called 'Titans East'. They're supposed to be under Deathstroke. I'm definitely going to catch that arc since 2 of my favourite characters (Cass and Slade) are in there.

It's quite sad to see the way Cass turned out, especially since I really enjoyed her series. And the issue where Barbara accidentally thought that Batgirl liked Batman in that woman-loves-a-man kind of way and it turns out that she just really wanted physical fatherly affections from him was just... priceless.

Batman has a LOT of things on his plate right now. Aside from Talia dumping him with a boy she claimed to be his son on him (not Ibn, but some punk kid named Damian), he also legally adopted Tim as his son and is in the process of re-forming the Justice League. That means that Bruce Wayne legally and officially has 3 heirs; 4, if Damian sticks around. Well, maybe 3 still if he can't get around the legalities of Jason being alive again. And speaking of my favourite Boy Wonder, he'll be romping in Green Arrow and Outsiders next year. Yee-HAW! XD

I think the only person in the Bat-family to have ever warmed up to Huntress was Tim. Oracle seems to still have a professional type of relationship with her - she definitely isn't as close to her as Dinah. And Dick doesn't want to have anything to do with her even if he did sleep with her once. Too bad - she looked hot in that skimpy crime-fighting outfit of hers and I think she'd make a great flight for Tim >D And as for Spoiler? Man, I always thought that when Batman made her Robin, it was just his secret way of getting back at Tim for quitting - "You're leaving your post? Fine: I'll make your girlfriend Robin instead!" Plus, the arc that led to Stephanie's death never really struck a note with me. And she didn't get her own creepy display case in the Batcave either. Says loads about how Batman views her.

(cut for length)

Batman's way of being extra-harsh on his own side I feel can be justified. In a fight against a bad guy, you *know* that the guy in front of you is going to burn down your house and kill all your pets if he gets the chance. At the same time, you also *expect* the guy fighting beside you to not want to do those things. What if your ally once did those stuff? Does that mean that he is capable of becoming like the guy you're currently fighting? If Batman has to go into fights with such questions lingering, he's on some level right to be paranoia about allies who have once served the wrong side. My way of looking at it at least.

And yeah, Supes did take over a few worlds in some Elseworlds, but it all get turned into cop-outs of "I was possessed to do evil! Oh, I must right it now!" by the end of it. Always. The core of Superman is undeniable goodness, it seems.

And I believe 'Batman Unmasked' did include some of those rules. I read the old edition of it from my university's library last year - it was quite fun :D

I'm a bit shagged to reply to all you cool cats and your comments :D;;

But I do have a post here from last year that I think you'd be interested in reading! I posted segments from Wertham's infamous 'Seduction of the Innocent' and also bits and pieces from 'Batman Unmasked'. IMHO, Adam West must learn the meaning of "made love" and not use it in the context of referring to his Boy Wonder co-star...!
http://code-renegade.livejournal.com/395403.html

Have fun!

My 2 cents: I think a big part of Batman is all about his trust issues. Betrayal by a hero that he trust would be one of the few things he'd fear more than the thought of one his family dying and betraying him (though now I want to know how he's dealing with the whole Cassandra thing.)

"These people are irredeemable and must be stopped however they can be"?

I think I read a fic about it, or at least where Superman sets himself up as God and attempt to redeem the world via his image. It can happen.

Not much about the Green Lantern, but d00d, I love Angel, I believe redemption in all its Glory, which is not saying I don't emphathise with the people who wants vengeance against the, um, redeemed hero, it is just that I completely believe in redemption. However, I'm also of the firm belief that one must be responsible for one's action, probably why I'm always on the side of the person attempting to get even if I personally adore the hero who's trying to get redeemed. Anything can be forgiven, but that doesn't mean it should be forgotten or ignored, and not every person can forgive (which, fair enough, but I truly belief in forgiveness and redemption... only if the person in question truly wants to redeem him/herself, and also, I'm not talking about just asking for forgiveness, I'm talking about attempting to make up for it for the rest of their lives, ala Kenshin style.)

Is this making sense?